#anti daemon blackfyre

[direwolfrules]

So like, I just think it would be so funny if in the pre-Blackfyre Rebellion era, Daemon Blackfyre’s thing for Daenerys was one-sided. Like, there’s Daemon being a creepy weirdo and Daenerys is just like, “which bastard half-brother are you again?” Give me a Daenerys who absolutely does not give a fuck about Daddy’s favorite little tool to insult his trueborn heir for the high crime of *checks notes* being responsible. Give me Daenerys going to her brother who’s basically old enough to be her dad and being like, “Thank the gods you betrothed me to Maron Martell, I cannot stand Daemon’s constant talk about taking a second wife”.

Listen, I know George said in a word of god interview thing that Daenerys was in love with Daemon or whatever, but I simply do not care. If he wanted us to truly believe that she loved Daemon, he should have had her mourn him. I’m in the camp that the whole “BUT THEY WERE IN LOVE” thing in universe is just maesters making shit up for dramatic effect and also by Blackfyre rebels to try and add some romance to their cause, to spread the belief they’re fighting for some noble purpose or whatever.

Anyways, this is an anti-Daemon Blackfyre zone (joking, he can be so interesting but I do NOT believe he holds an actual claim to the Iron Throne, I’m actually much more interested in Daena, Rhaena, and Elaena trapped in the fucking Maiden Vault because Baelor decided to live out an eternal No-Nut November).

[alicentsaegon]

It's so comical when Team Black stans try to argue there would NOT in fact have been an inevitable conflict between Jacaerys and Aegon III and the Targaryen dynasty would have gone on all peachy if it was not for those pesky Greens. Their argument of course is that "Aegon III loved his brothers!!1!" actually Aegon was a ten year old child when his half brothers died of course he is going to idolize and love them, Jace or any of the Strong boys did not live long enough for their relationship to go sour. Think critically for one second.

[fadingstudentbananacookie]

It's hilarious how Daemon and Rhaenyra's grandchildren carry the Green's legacy in spirit by destroying House Targaryen through internal conflicts decades later.

Aegon IV grows up to be far more extreme and gluttonous than Aegon II could ever be, coupled with a greater degree of cowardice (Aegon II would never). His sister Naerys is a little Helaena/Alicent-coded, but her cousin Daena mirrors Alicent more than I could imagine. And I am precisely talking about book!Alicent here.

Both Alicent and Daena were unapologetic in their pursuit of power after years of abuse and neglect, demanding the realm recognize their sons as kings by birthright. Neither of them gave two fucks about starting a civil war and I call that a slayyy. Go, my queens!

If Daena had been more like Rhaenyra, believe me when I say I wouldn't have liked her as much. It's their defiance that makes both Alicent and Daena more compelling characters.

I don't necessarily think Daena would have liked Alicent, but she would have definitely felt grudging respect and admiration for her courage.

Daeron the Young Dragon is just like Daeron the Daring (both are extremely popular among the nobles and the smallfolk). Both died young and were eternalized. Baelor the Blessed is obsessed with catholicism and guilt to a point that would even scare Alicent and Criston.

Aemon the Dragonknight is essentially a more refined, though not necessarily cooler, version of Aemond One-Eye. Aemon literally stood aside while his sister endured years of sexual and psychological abuse from her brother-husband. Aemond would never have stood by if Aegon II had tried to harm Helaena. His loyalty and protectiveness towards his sister would have driven him to intervene. Their love stories are similar too, with many fans shipping Aemond with Helaena, and Aemon with Naerys.

Elaena is intriguing, but there's not much to say about her or her sister Rhaena.

Daemon and Rhaenyra's grandchildren are worse than the Targtowers in every aspect. Alicent (the Hightowers) and her children de-stabilized House Targaryen during the Dance, but Rhaenyra's grandchildren did so much worse by starting a civil war that lasted for generations to come. Team Black got the realm and power back, and they still fucked up. Again.

Another intriguing aspect is that Alicent and her children had legitimate reasons to resist and fight for Aegon's claim to the throne by feudal right—even if those reasons were fueled by spite and revenge. Alicent endured years of sexual abuse from Viserys, bearing children he barely acknowledged. She was humiliated in court and called "mad" when her son lost his eye, and Rhaenyra's son faced no repercussions—not even a slap on the wrist.

The Targtower children were neglected by their father for years and were practically forgotten when Rhaenyra lived in the Red Keep with her sons in tow. (And if you think Rhaenyra didn’t use her father’s love and rejection of his other children as a political machination, then you’re an absolute idiot.) If usurping her throne was the biggest fuck you they could give Rhaenyra and Viserys, then I fully support it!

Despite their complicated and angry feelings towards each other, the Greens would never act on them to cause significant harm. They understood that they only had each other for support and protection. But Rhaenyra's grandchildren, who were also in a similar situation, harbored outright hatred for each other for no reason! You'd think after the Dance, they would have learned a thing or two about the importance of family, but the gang didn't give a single fuck LMAO.

Daemon and Rhaenyra's grandchildren didn't have significant opposition. House Targaryen still held substantial power and ruled over the other Great Houses. Although they had to be more cautious without having dragons to threaten others, the internal strife could have been avoided if Daena and her sisters had been treated like actual human beings rather than cattle. (If Alicent was treated better and her children were acknowledged by Viserys and the rest of his family). The lack of care and respect towards them sowed the seeds of war, leading to the internal conflicts that ultimately weakened the dynasty.

The generational cycle of abuse and neglect within House Targaryen is one of the main key reasons why they were driven to extinction in merely three centuries. House Hightower and House Baratheon only did so little to show their true color.

Rhaenyra's claim that "The only thing that could tear down the House of the Dragon was itself," couldn't be more accurate!

[rynnthefangirl]

Bastards in Westeros have my whole heart. To constantly be told that you are lesser, unworthy of titles, unworthy of inheritance, inherently evil and distrustful, not because of anything you did, but simply for being born the “wrong” way. If you are high born, you may even live among the very nobles who revile and mistrust you. You— a child who has done them no wrong. And even if you are lucky enough to have your bastardy be mere rumor, you still are not spared. Because whether or not people wish to raise you high or burn you to the ground hinges entirely on whether your mother slept with the right person 9 months before you existed… even though you are the same person regardless. Wars will be fought just to punish you for being born.

[melodymidway]

Jaehaerys: *chooses Baelon over Rhaenys despite the law saying that a niece inherits before an uncle*

Fandom: She was usurped! Rhaenys should have been queen!

Viserys: *chooses Rhaenyra over Aegon despite the law saying that a son inherits before a daughter*

Fandom: He has no right to the throne! Usurper!

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Does daemon blackfyre sound like the kinda guy to say bro?

Well, “bro” isn’t used at all in the series, so literally he wouldn’t. As for the figurative “informal title” that “bro” can signify, I headcanon Daemon of basically doing the opposite: Daemon was raised in King’s Landing among nobles (where there’s more pressure to “speak properly”) and had the class structure drilled into his head (he’s below “trueborn” Tàrgaryens on the social ladder). I think he would always use someone’s title if they were higher on the social ladder than him (lords, princes) or if he didn’t know them very well. He’d never ever refer to Dæron II and his descendants by anything familiar, because as stated Dæron wanted everyone to know that he was of higher status than Daemon, and Dæron’s sons wouldn’t reach out to try a familiar relationship. Granted, I assume he had a warmer relationship with Aegor and Brynden Rivers, and wouldn’t call them Bloodraven or Bittersteel (which are pejoratives, and we know Aegor at least didn’t like the epithet), but probably just by their first names. I also imagine that he had unique nicknames for some close ones (wife, children, foster siblings), but nothing generic like “bro” (instead sort of like how Rodrik Harlaw calls his older sister Alannys “Lanny”), and probably wouldn’t use them in public. But for me he’s more like Sansa with titles, and would avoid harmful nicknames or terminology (not using Bittersteel and Bloodraven to refer to Aegor and Brynden, calling Black Byren Flowers “Ser Byren” or “Byren the Bard” to not bring up his illegitimate name), and retreat into formality if he’s feeling insulted by someone of higher status (Ex: the type to call his wife “my lady of Tyrosh” if he’s upset with her).

Aegor is more the type to call his cousins (presumably Otho and his brothers) “coz”, which is a term used several times (by Jaime to his cousins Cleos, Lancel, and Daven; by Andrew Estermont to his young cousin Edric Storm; by Dick Straw about Myrakis’ cousin), considering he wasn’t raised in a place that emphasized formal speaking and he was raised by the Brackens, so there’d be more familiarity than with the Tàrgaryens of any status.

[eschercaine]

The greens plotted to usurp Rhaenyra (and killed her), only for their line to go extinct while hers lives on.

That’s karma for you.

[iwouldservehim]

At this point I don’t know how many of the people making awful arguments against Rhaenyra are plain stupid, or manilupating facts on purpose/acting with willful cluelessness, and I stopped making a difference.

But to have seen all this uppity, condescending ‘criticism’ about how Rhaenyra should have done better by being a pious and obedient woman enough, and having children with a man blonde enough, and ending it with a flourish about how “burr burr bastards bad” by name-dropping the Blackfyre Rebellion... and not see a single bulb going off about how they prove all their “criticism” is turned to dust by that instead of a big gotcha!

The Blackfyre Rebellion concerns a woman most pious, most obedient, most innocent, most suffering in silence and doing her family duty, who has a most blonde son as her very blonde husband King... and she is accussed of adultery and said son of being a bastard. Only because there was another likewise blonde dude sitting close by that treated said woman in a better way (the bar isn’t even high) than her rapist ‘unworthy’ husband AND likewise because Daeron, just as Rhaenyra, wasn’t conforming to his own (man’s) gender expectations. And so a lot of greedy or bigoted people rubbed their hands at being able to weaponise moralistic buzzword to get theirs (like the whole bunch of you).

Literally NEITHER Daemon Blackfyre or Daeron were even bastards - Daemon was literally legitimised; and don’t go ‘eheheh, but Naerys-’ literally didn’t want to fuck ANOTHER guy, she wanted to be a Westerosi NUN. But either party would throw around the same bullshitting attempts at brainwashing with hidden bigotry behind pretense rightousness to further their own agendas and whatever they deemed was the more beneficial endgame for their own political interests.

If you had any brains or honesty at all, you’d compare Daemon and his supporters trying to depose Daeron to what Aegon and the Greens did to Rhaenyra. Even if Daemon is legitimised, he is Daeron’s younger brother. And he and his party are betting on literally the same hate for gender nonconformance, and throwing around insidous comments about a woman’s sex life, and how it makes her child subhuman.

If Rhaenyra was the most well-behaved and selfless of women, and had the blondest of kids, she would just be Naerys, because the system they live in doesn’t EVER EVER EVER award this glorified duty, sacrifice and compliance - at best, it takes advantage of their convenience. They would have literally easily spilt tales about how they are Daemon’s bastards given their Kingdom wide suspected history and the fact that he’s the next close male relationship around her and also being such a “good, sweet woman” in this scenario comes with a sprinkle of a “this feeble, simpleminded thing wouldn’t even have the ‘manly’ qualities needed in a leader, tsk tsk”, because it has always been about stealing the throne by people who wanted it for themselves, who were always known to want it for themselves, and finding some reason or other for it.

[sayruq]

Ok OMG I went through your Daemon Blackfyre tag and the Jon Snow comparisons are undeniable. Also, a few days ago I came across a Ratlya shipper/JS fan screaming, crying, throwing up at people comparing Jon to Daemon and they tried to refute it. I wondered what the big deal was but now I know they hate the thought of Jon being a 'usurper' and usurping his legitimate brother's claim el oh el lmao.

Lmaoooo but Aegon was born first and I doubt Jon would be universally accepted as a trueborn son because the last time a Targaryen tried to marry multiple women at the same time, there was a militant uprising. Unfortunately, regardless of who claims him as a father, Jon is screwed.

[lemonhemlock]

I really wish the show had emphasized Daemon being dangerous because I can't see him being a father to the bastard boys and all I thought was that they were going to die after Rhaenrya got the throne for his sons. As well as the green boys. Daemon does not listen to Jacerys with his mothers orders.

I don't see how people can say Daemon is father material when we have Ser Harwin.

Daemon is dangerous, it's just that they never show the greens actively afraid of him. IMO Vaemond's summary execution should have rattled the greens more. All of them, like. Imagining that's their head cut open by Dark Sister. Something to wake even Aegon from his hangover.

[cowboysanddragons23]

Debunking Rhaelya shippers' arguments:

-"Dorne doesn't frown on polygamy.": Dorne is very sexually liberal in many things, but polygamy is not one of them. They are still a class society (ex. Oberyn would never marry Ellaria even though he genuinely loves her, Quentyn Martell was a virgin and Arianne would never marry Daemon Sand.) and polygamy is illegal under the eyes of the Old and New Gods and since Jaehaerys I outlawed it and for a very good reason.

-"Elia and Rhaegar had an agreement about his affair with Lyanna." "Elia would have been ok with Rhaegar going with Lyanna." "Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife along with Elia.": Elia would have never agreed to Rhaegar cavorting with Lyanna, because that would be giving her enemies a recently sharpened sword to murder her and her children, as she knows that the cause of the Blackfyre Rebellions was the anti Dornish sentiment towards Myriah Martell and her son Baelor. Also, Maegor was the last Targaryen king who attempted enforced polygamy having a dragon and even he couldn't make the Faith bow. Rhaegar has no dragons to inspire obedience.

-"Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love." "Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story." "Rhaegar would have been a great king." "Rhaegar would care about Jon." "Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been a great king and queen.": There is no evidence that points out that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, aside from the testimony of Barristan Selmy (who was never at the Tower of Joy, thus he doesn't know what truly happened). Rhaegar was Summerhall made flesh; obsession with prophecies, grandiose plans to save the world and willingness to sacrifice women into its altar. He took Lyanna because he wanted to prove that the prophecy that led to his birth was real and that the sacrifices his family made were worth something. Whatever fondness he had for Lyanna, his Third Head of the Dragon always came first. Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't have been good parents to Jon, because the former would give up on him from birth because he isn't the Visenya he wanted and the latter would be too young to be a mother (Viserys II and Larra Rogare everyone?). And besides, thousands died for it and the same happened when Duncan Targaryen married Jenny of Oldstones (who are exactly the romantic love story Rhaelya is erroneously interpreted as). Rhaegar is too obsessed with prophecies and Lyanna is utterly disinterested in ladylike pursuits.

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Thinking of the most prominent succession struggles in asoiaf and realizing that a good majority of them are not even because of some evil bastard usurping their trueborn relative. Alys Karstark’s dilemma is caused by her uncle wanting to forcibly marry her and steal her birthright. Renly is Stannis’ trueborn brother and yet he declares himself king despite Stannis being older. Euron is Balon’s trueborn brother and Asha’s uncle and yet look at what he did. Littlefinger wants to use a trueborn Harry Harding to take over Sweetrobin’s rights (though not so openly). And the Dance of the Dragons was between a trueborn pair of brother and sister. And if we are to see a repeat of it, it will be between a trueborn daughter of the last Targaryen king (Dany) and a trueborn son (Aegon) of the previous crown prince.

That’s what makes the whole “Jon was a threat to Catelyn’s children” argument so frustrating because people act as if Jon was a ticking time bomb that was going to blow at any minute, purely on account of him being a bastard. When historically, we’re given much more precedent for trueborn relatives to usurp each other.

This frustrating argument arises out of two problems:

ASOIAF stans are not engaging as critically with the text as they should be. Catelyn’s historical evidence lies in the series of Blackfyre Rebellions which happened after a legitimized bastard rose up against his brother. But context is key here. Not only were there several factors that led to this fallout (e.g., Daemon being given the conqueror’s sword Blackfyre, anti-Dornish sentiment not working in Daeron’s favor, Daeron himself being a suspected bastard, Daemon’s overall popularity, etc), but people ignore Bloodraven (a BASTARD!) who supported his trueborn brother’s claim during this series of conflicts. Daemon did not rebel because all bastards are inclined to treachery and all bastards bring evil to those around them. If any bastards raised near trueborns are a threat to the trueborn’s inheritance, then why not Bittersteel? Why not Shiera? Why didn’t other Stark bastards rebel against their trueborn siblings? Several factors led to the conflict specifically between Daemon and Daeron. Instead of taking Catelyn’s filtered history at face value, we should instead recognize that Daemon was given legal basis to push for his claim (after a series of events that symbolically recognized him as the worthy and true heir) as he was now a legitimized son, and succession struggles are, more oft than not, likely to happen between recognized legitimate competing claims. And here’s the thing, Ned Stark at no point indicated that he was going to give Jon legitimacy in the North. And he never indicated that he would give it to Jon over Robb. On the contrary, everyone knew that Robb was the heir. Robb was the one being given lessons, Robb was the one helping Ned attend to visiting lords, Robb was the one who would inherit Ice, etc. By Alys’ account in ADWD, preparations were being made for Robb’s future (NOT for Jon, who was largely ignored). There was no opportunity for Jon to pose any threat to Robb or his children because Ned did not give him legitimacy and he did not allow him to gain backing with the Northern lords. Aegon IV created Daemon and his subsequent rebellion(s), but Ned Stark did not do the same with Jon. Despite Catelyn treating Jon as a walking crisis center, there’s little evidence to the effect. In fact, we might as well say that Bran or Rickon or any of Sansa’s or Arya’s sons would pose an even bigger threat to Robb’s legacy than Jon would, you know given historical precedent and all that.

Treating Jon’s mere existence as one that inherently comes with dire consequences for “le poor trueborns” plays into bastardphobia, which is actually in world bigotry (and grrm considers Jon to be a marginalized individual on account of his bastardy). Saying that Jon is a threat to the Stark kids is saying that all bastards are threats to trueborns but like….so are the trueborns. History, actual hiatory, shows us that trueborns are a bigger threat to each other. But no one is saying “Bran is a threat to Robb’s kids” even though there is precedent. Bran is also getting a lordling’s education just as Robb is, and Bran is allowed to engage with the upper class on important occasions and gain visibility just as Robb is, and Bran is even expected to command his own castle and men (which would even give him ability to stake his claim). So why isn’t he a threat? Instead, Jon is the one who is singled out - because he’s a bastard. He’s being singled out because Catelyn said he should be singled out, despite there being little actual evidence to his supposed incoming usurpation. Which is ironic because the literal purpose of his story is to critique these bigoted views. Jon is just as honorable and good and kind as any other trueborn son, if not more so. And we have seen him sacrificing his own happiness for his siblings (e.g., the direwolf pups and refusing Winterfell because he will not usurp Sansa’s rights). It’s one thing for Catelyn to show ignorance, but we as readers should know better because we have a full picture and not only do we have an understanding of the history being cited by Catelyn (and what is being purposefully ignored), we also know Jon. So we should be saying, “wait no, there’s no indication that Jon is any more a threat than any one of Ned’s sons”.

It is understandable (but not justifiable tbh) that Catelyn is biased against Jon; he is the ever present product of her husband’s affair. But that’s just it, she’s biased. So she has a biased application of history. And she has a biased (and bigoted) view of Jon’s place in it. We as readers have a full picture though. So shouldn’t we be having more nuanced dialogue regarding this instead of taking her biased word for it?

[goodqueenaly]

This is such a niche question, but how do you make sense of the Penrose family tree during Daeron ll’s reign? We have Elaena marrying Lord Ronnel Penrose and having 4 kids with him, Aelinor Penrose who is Aerys’ cousin somehow, and the 4 sons that Quentyn Ball murders during battle. They’re mostly irrelevant but I’m scratching my head thinking how this all works

A niche genealogical-dynastic question? You’ve come to the right place! 

While Elio Garcia confirmed (here and here) that Aelinor was a cousin of her husband Aerys, he did not confirm the specific nature of this familial relationship. (And for what it’s worth, I’m supposing that Aelinor and Aerys were very roughly of an age.) If I were to guess, I would suppose that Aelinor was a descendant of either Baela or Rhaena Targaryen - a mid to late grandchild, maybe, of Baela’s marriage to Alyn Velaryon or Rhaena’s marriage to Garmund Hightower). Whether Aelinor was specifically a daughter of the ruling Lord (presumably a lord) of Parchments or the daughter of a male-line descendant of the family we can’t know for now, until and unless GRRM specifies (in Fire and Blood Volume 2, perhaps, or the Tales of Dunk and Egg), but I think the best guess is that Aelinor was something like the future King Aerys I’s second cousin once removed (again, assuming that being Aerys’ cousin didn’t mean that Aelinor was, say, descended from one of Aemma Arryn’s half-siblings, or one of Queen Alyssa’s Velaryon nephews, though I doubt GRRM intends Aelinor to have been so distantly removed a relation). 

If we can say very little about Aelinor’s place in the Penrose dynasty, we can say even less about her relationship to either Ronnel Penrose or the unnamed “Lady Penrose” whose youngest son Quentyn Ball supposedly spared, much less the relationship of the latter two to one another. Clearly, from both the Targaryen family tree and from Elio’s statements referenced above, Aelinor was not a daughter of Ronnel and Elaena themselves. If we are to guess - admittedly rather a thin guess, but not totally illogical - that Ronnel was closer to Elaena’s age than Aelinor’s (and so more obvious a marriage partner for the roughly 30-something Elaena, then perhaps Ronnel belonged to the generation of Aelinor’s father (presumably father, given the Westerosi patriarchal tendency to identify dynasts along male lines), maybe born, at an extremely rough estimate, around the 140s or 150s. 

So my guess is that Aelinor was a granddaughter of one of the twin daughters of Daemon and Laena (perhaps Baela more likely, given the relative geopolitical advantage of uniting Parchments and Driftmark, compared to Parchments and Oldtown, a consideration of cross-country marriage making I discussed), and a daughter of the unnamed Lord of Parchments. Maybe because Daeron II liked the fact that Aelinor was a cousin of himself and his children (just far enough, perhaps, from religiously objectionable degrees of relation while still having that familial connection); maybe he thought that Aelinor, coming from a family with at bare minimum a heraldic respect for the written word, would be an attractive partner for his bookish second son (as Jaehaerys so badly failed to understand with his son Vaegon); maybe Daeron felt the Penroses were a worthy ally in the Stormlands to draw more would-be or actively anti-Dornish families away from the pro-war, and perhaps increasingly pro-Daemon, camp; maybe for any combination or none of these reasons - but whatever the rationale, King Daeron decided to betroth Prince Aerys to Lady Aelinor. Then, I think, when Aerys failed or refused to consummate his marriage, Daeron II tried to save face with the Penroses by offering Ronnel - who I think may have been Aelinor’s paternal uncle - to his eligible widowed cousin, Princess Elaena. The “Lady Penrose” of the First Blackfyre Rebellion may have been Aelinor’s (unnamed, because of course GRRM) mother, with the boys nearly all slain by Fireball perhaps Aelinor’s younger brothers - a heartbreaking personal loss, if so, for a war which saw other bitter personal losses for figures like Eustace Osgrey and Bloodraven.)

These are all guesses, obviously, very much complicated by the extremely limited information we have and the lack of clarity provided by what is there (not only the historical error on Jeor Mormont’s part, but also the vague reference to the First Blackfyre Rebellion’s “Lady Penrose” - seemingly the wife or widow of a Lord of Parchments, but complicated by the sometimes overbroad use of “lady” as a title in Westeros, as seen for example in references to Sybelle Locke as “Lady Glover” despite being only the sister-in-law of the Master of Deepwood Motte). All we can say is that Aelinor was in some fashion related to Aerys, but not through Elaena, and that we’re probably bound to learn more in Fire and Blood Volume 2 or future Tales of Dunk and Egg.

(It me, so I have to wonder if GRRM used “Aelinor” as her name not only to add a little dose of Valyrian-ness to her, but also because of its similarity to “Alienor”, the spelling used by Maurice Druon in The Accursed Kings for the woman most of us probably know better as Eleanor of Aquitaine. I don’t find Aelinor, to the very limited extent we know her, similarly either to the historical Eleanor or Druon’s typically misogynistic pseudo-historical references to her - but then I also don’t see the similarity with Alysanne, for what it’s worth.)

[thesupercat]

Exactly! I don't think the romance between Daemon and Daenerys can be compared to Rhaegar's abduction/grooming of Lyanna.

Daemon never had the sort of princely authority that Rhaegar had, nor was he all that older than Dany. (He was only 2 years older than her, and he wed Rohanne when he was 14 while Dany wed Maron when she was 15 and went to Dorne with him.) He never kidnapped Daenerys or even declared that he wanted to marry her.

Remember, everything we know about the start of the First Blackfyre Rebellion comes from a Targ-supporting maester who goes out of his way to malign the rebels. But even Yandel admits that the rebellion only began when Daeron II ordered Daemon's arrest on (possibly unfounded) charges of treason, and that Daemon had better reasons to rebel than some unrequited teenage love.

Anon, I think a more appropriate comparison (with respect to age gaps) would be Dany's marriage to Maron Martell, the younger brother of Myriah Martell, who was at least 15-17 years older than Daenerys. Or Daemon Targaryen's creepy relationship with multiple younger women. Or hell, whatever happened between Aegon the Unworthy (another charming young prince with Kingsguards who chose loyalty over honor) and Daena the Defiant (the proto-Lyanna).

I'm sorry I tried to view the relationship between rhaegar and Lyanna in a bad light but I just cannot see it that way 😭. Like yeah the age gap is questionable but an age gap of 8 years on a song of ice and fire between an 23 y.o and 16 is one of the least horrific gaps on the entire series plus he compared the relationship to daemon blackfyre and daenerys who in an interview he said these two loves each other, and During ASOS where bran and meera were talking about the tourney bran said the crannogman should have crowned the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty unbeknownst to him that the dragon prince crowned most likely because of the knight of the laughing tree fiasco which to me seems that GRRM already endorsed it, and the song "no feather bed for me" screams r/l to me (how she smiled and how she laughed the maid of the tree) (I will protect with my sword) (the maid with flowers on her hair). like IDK but one thing I'm sure of is that at the end of the day George is writing them as a love story rather than one of rape and kidnapping.

Also adding to that + the story of bael the bard and the rose of winterfell and the story of Jacaerys velaryon and sara snow

Hi anon,

I can't really say anything other than we are reading the books very differently.

What you call an "age gap" is an adult creeping on a young teenager who was 14 when they met and 16 when she died in childbirth, imprisoned by his loyal knights. GRRM had Ned describe her as a "child woman" for a reason.

I am 100% confident that GRRM is not asking the reader to consider this a romance or love story in any way shape or form.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

If Nettles was white, she would be as popular as Lyanna, Brienne or Arya, and y’all know it.

She grew up a homeless orphan (which is why it’s so insulting when people try to act like she’s a freaking idiot who doesn’t know how to bathe herself yet she can tame a dragon🤦🏽‍♀️ Put most of the highborn women in her position and they wouldn’t survive a day in her shoes).

She’s the only known non-Valyrian dragonrider who claims a wild dragon. A prince who believes in Valyrian supremacy falls in love with her to the point where he’s willing to sacrifice his life for her. Nettles singlehandedly disproves the whole idea of Targaryen exceptionalism and their blood purity. She slowly earns a dragon’s trust by bringing him sheep, and gradually he lets her closer, and then forms the dragonrider bond and lets her fly. up until this point, nobody had tried a strategy like that before.

Nettles is self-made. She’s self-taught. She’s loved for herself. She survives a freaking war and becomes a fire goddess/witch. Who wouldn’t want her ? Who wouldn’t want to be her ? Unlike Rhaenyra and Alicent, she’s the final girl of F&B.

Once again, I don't understand where you got that I'm anti Nettles? I'm anti Nettles x Daemon, but other than that theory, I very much am a fan of Nettles as a character. I won't say that there isn't racism and unfairness that happen regarding Nettles' character (though I haven't seen it personally), because people can be really shitty. But me personally, again, I'm not anti Nettles, I just dislike certain groups of her stans.

Again, I don't deny that Nettles was a strong woman. She endured many things most characters in F&B don't and most likely survived the Dance. However, I do disagree with some of the ideas you're stating as fact.

For starters, we don't know if Nettles is non-Valyrian; that's one of the many theories surrounding her, but it's not confirmed, so stating it as fact is misleading. Just because she lacks traditional Valyrian features doesn't means she isn't a dragonseed.

Jace and his brothers don't look Valyrian but they very obviously are of Valyrian descent. Rhaenys, the queen who never was, had black hair; Duncan the son of Aegon V looked like his mother, Betha Blackwood; Aegor Rivers also had black hair; Baelor Breakspear had dark hair; Daeron son of Maekar had sandy brown hair; Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar had her mother, Elia Martell's features.

Moving on, Daemon's relationship with Nettles is ambiguous. We don't know if they were in a romantic relationship or if his attack on Aemond was purely to save her (though I'm sure that was part of his decision). Again, you are stating a theory you believe as fact, even though it's unconfirmed.

I'm not going to touch the whole thing of Targaryen exceptionalism, because, as I said earlier, Nettles' parentage is unconfirmed. But the whole blood purity thing still hasn't been disproven at any point of GRRM's works; they intermarried to preserve their magic blood, the magic blood still exists in ASOIAF due to the incest.

Nettles is an important character in the story of the Dance, but she isn't the "final girl" you claim she is, let alone of the whole book. There are several dragon riders who survived the Dance and thrived. Rhaena is the ancestor of the Tyrells in the main series. Aegon III is the ancestor of Daenerys, the Baratheons, any remaining Blackfyres, and possibly Jon Snow and Young Griff. Baela and Alyn are the ancestors of Aurane Waters and the Velaryons.

The book of F&B is so much more than the Dance of the Dragons. Saying that Nettles is the "final girl" of the book doesn't make any sense when she only appears in a few sections. That's like saying Alys Rivers is actually the main character of the book. Nettles disappears after the Dance and doesn't appear in any other event. She does nothing else after her disappearance and has relatively little impact on the history of Westeros post Dance.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the whole "fire goddess/witch" thing. However, you have already been throwing out theories and your personal biases as fact, so I don't think it matters. I'm not trying to control who your fav is, I totally understand wanting to be a certain book character. But that doesn't mean you can act like everyone else is wrong for not having the same fav as you.

It's that kind of entitlement, thinking you're better than everyone else that makes people not like Nettles stans. It's almost on par with stansas and Alicent stans. People like you project so hard onto your favs, you take any perceived insult, critique, or argument as a personal attack. It's exhausting interacting with people like you.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Daeron II: Aegor Rivers, what do you call plotting to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty? Aegor Rivers, instantly: A hobby. Aegor Rivers, after seeing Daemon Blackfyre shaking his head furiously and mouthing NO behind Daeron: That I do not engage in. Aegor Rivers, mumbling: For now.